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Aggressive + Competent = Bitch?

Categories: Career, Working? Living?


A long time ago, my grandmother told me that I’d have to choose: I could either be sweet and well-liked (and make do with whatever the world decided to hand to me) or I could be aggressive, go after what I want, and be considered a bitch.

I didn’t believe her.

But she was right.

I had a pretty stark reminder of this at work some time ago. We were down a person, and the projects were piling up. One that was in pretty bad shape landed on my desk, and I threw myself into it 110 percent.

I brought it home with me and stayed up late wrestling with it. I devoted all of my energy to it at the office. I turned ideas and thoughts about it over and over in my head as I worked on other things. I fact-checked, I researched, I patched loopholes.

When it was done, I thought it was pretty good. Much better than it had been before, at any rate.

But… apparently, in being aggressive with the project, I had “attacked” it and been “too strident.” It seemed as if I “had an agenda” and wasn’t “impartial enough.” I shouldn’t have made the decisions that I did, even though they were clearly the right ones, because those decisions should have been made by someone higher up.

I really couldn’t win this one. If I had slacked and done just the bare minimum, the project would have been OK, but nothing great, and I probably would have been taken to task for not working hard enough. But taking the initiative to do more than what was required of me made me “strident” and “arrogant.” In other words, a bitch.

My hard work had worked against me.

What’s stupid of me is that I should have seen it coming; this has happened to me many times before. If I’m confident, I’m seen as arrogant. If I’m correct about something and don’t back down, I’m officious and I don’t know when to stop. If I’m aggressive, I’m a bitch.

Years ago, I’d feel horrible about it. Sorry, even. But you know what? I don’t, anymore.

On Saturday Night Live this weekend, in a repeat from the end of the writer’s strike, Tina Fey told the “Weekend Update” audience: “Bitch is the new black.” (Click on the link for transcript and video.) She was talking about the public perception of Hillary Clinton, but, really, what she said applies to any strong woman out there. “You know what?” she said. “Bitches get stuff done.”

The project got done, and got done well. If that makes me a bitch, well… I can live with that.

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46 comments so far...

  • Thank you so mcuh for your article. I struggle with this every day and I refuse to compromise. I can be friendly when it is appropriate, however when it ’s time to get the job done, I do it. I’m in Quality Control and already I’m not liked, then throw in that it’s my job to tell everyone where there needs to be improvements. I can’t win no matter what I do. It’s actually preventing me from getting promoted.

    Heather L. Rahl  |  March 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am

  • One of my favorite co-workers would qualify for that term, but only until folks get to know her. She’s aggressive and a strong advocate for her students, and that’s the bottom line. When she says, “I need…” she really means that her students need this. If I’m going to be a bitch, I want to be one like her.

    Daisy  |  March 24th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

  • I don’t know what it is like to be a working women but one thing I do know for sure is that the complaining never stops.

    Women must think that men are not thought of in deragatory terms at work, or that they don’t have a hard time at work, or that their grandfathers didn’t talk to them about how life was going to be.

    It is hard to move on and advance if all you ever do is think that it is raining on you soley because you are a women. If you think that is true, then you can rest assured that it will be.

    The Masked Millionaire

    The Masked Millionaire  |  March 24th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  • Heather: Thank you for sharing this. How ironic that it’s affecting your work when being agressive about solving problems is *part* of your work!

    Daisy: She sounds like a great role model!

    The Masked Millionaire: Thanks for stopping by, but I think you’ve misunderstood the greater point of this post. I’m not complaining about being thought of as a bitch. I’m saying that, maybe, being a bitch isn’t a bad thing after all.

    I don’t think that I or any of the people reading this are thinking that our problems at work stem *solely* from being a woman, but that being female and being a mother affects not only how we work, but how we are treated at work. I also think it’s undeniable that certain behaviors that are considered positive in a man in the workplace are seen as negative in a woman, and both men and women are treated accordingly.

    Of course men have a hard time at work… but I doubt they face the exact same issues that working moms do, simply because men, in general, are not as defined by parenthood as women are. (If they were, you’d hear “Working Dad” a lot more often.) I’m not saying their problems are “easier” and women’s issues are “harder,” I’m saying that the issues are different for many women.

    Thanks again for your comment — the last part of it, at least.

    Lylah  |  March 24th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

  • I think its where your at…Im from New York so being a bitch is all me, I lived in Miami for a while, and there too I found I had to be a bitch, but I recently moved to Texas (Houston) and come to realize its all about where your at, I found myself being myself (a bitch) here and realized thats not the route I have to take to get the things I want here, being nice is the best where Im at, although it makes me really sick , its the best thing for me here.

    Candice  |  March 24th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

  • This is awesome! I think you are correct. Looking back on my working career in regular office-type jobs, the hardest-working, most persistent, most dedicated women were inevitably considered bitches by many of their colleagues.

    Diane  |  March 24th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

  • BITCH = Babe in Total Control of Herself.

    I’m quite young and work in the computer hardware industry which is almost all male. While, when I was a bit younger I was definately seen as a Bitch. Today, I’m just seen as competent and I have moved quickly up the ladder. My reports to my direct reports call me the organization’s den mother. I protect my team. Period. I want the best for them and I protect them at whatever costs (because they are really the best and they deserve it.)

    You really have to play the political game. Men seem to know how to do this naturally. I really have to pay attention (and imitate my leaders) to know what to do. But, I know that if I protect my team (while weeding out the bad seeds) it just makes me better.

    I really don’t think that I needed to be the “bitch.” I just needed to build my credibility. I’m very smart, my team is loyal and dedicated to me, we perform incredibly and I am the ultimate marketer for my organization. Men do this - so I need to do it too. I can’t be quietly doing my job hoping someone will notice. I always (ALWAYS) have to have my 60 second brag clip (aka elevator speech) about myself and my team ready. It doesn’t make me a bitch, it makes me business savvy.

    These men need to know that I’m their EQUAL and their PEER. It takes effort and stepping outside of the comfort zone - but it actually works.

    Hecticmom  |  March 24th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

  • I know that I was called a “bitch” by those at my company who weren’t my friends. They didn’t know me so they thought my straight forward approach was bitchiness. But my buds at work knew that I was as a teddy bear once I left the office. It’s amazing to me that driven women are called bitches and driven men are called….driven.

    Grace  |  March 24th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  • Yeah…this gets to me too. Recently had a VC tell a company founder that I was “too aggressive.” The founder gave me that feedback so I adjusted accordingly and that exact VC said I was “too passive!” There is no winning at this with some people.

    Jules  |  March 25th, 2008 at 10:18 am

  • Lylah- you took the words right out of my mouth! I just had a conversation (well it was more me ranting) with a friend about this topic. You hit the nail on the head “Bitches get stuff done.” LOVE IT!

    Jacq  |  March 25th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

  • Candice: I hadn’t thought about that, but I can see how it could be a regional thing (I’m a Northeast gal, born and raised). Good point about adapting to where you are!

    Diane: I’ve found the same thing to be true where I am, too! In retrospect, maybe I mean “Assertive” as well as “Aggressive,” but you get my point!

    Hectic Mom: LOVE THIS ACRONYM! I think your point about building your credibility is a good one, but I do wonder if doing so is easier or harder depending on what field you’re in? If the perception of you is weighed as heavily as your actual accomplishments, in some fields?

    Lylah  |  March 25th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

  • Grace: You are so right, about “driven.” I’ve also found that women who are “driven” and “focused” are sometimes also called “cold” as well…

    Jules: That’s happened to me, too! Incredible, isn’t it? Sometimes, I want to say, “Fine, just tell me exactly what you’d like me to do.” But then I’d be REALLY bitchy, I guess!

    Jacq: Thank you! I think a lot of people can relate to what you’re going through!

    Lylah  |  March 25th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

  • Competent and hardworking women are often accused of being ‘agressive’ rather than ‘progressive’ and ‘proactive’ like their male counterparts.

    Is the ‘B’ word used, yeah–mainly by women and sadlly it shouldn’t be so.

    That’s my take.

    Sandra  |  March 25th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

  • My old boss was driven, passionate, hard working and a huge bitch. She got her stuff done, but it was at a price of being completely rude to everyone else around her. I think there’s a fine line to walk where you need to be a bitch to get your stuff done well, and then being a bitch just because you are the boss and you can, not because you have to.

    selfmademom  |  March 25th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

  • I am currently struggling with a personnel issue with a female employee. It seems that my direct style is intimidating to her. And any attempt to soften my style or tone are ignored by her since she has already made up her mind that I fall into the “Bitch” category.

    If that is going ot be the case, I guess I should stop fighting it, eh?

    amybow  |  March 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am

  • My nickname in my office is “snarky” because I expect the same level of performance from others that they would expect from me.

    At one point, I had a male co-worker tell me that he would “take my laptop away” if I didn’t “behave appropriately.” What he was talking about was my insistence that someone in his department be held accountable for senseless mistakes.

    I complained to HR who agreed he stepped over the line and that he never would have addressed a male senior editor the same way, but the back end impact was that I have been essentially marginalized as a senior member of staff.

    I am not happy about it…but I deal with it.

    Kathy  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:01 am

  • I am sorry, this is 100% incorrect. If you are living to your best potential and doing damage to others along the way, you are not living to your best potential. Lylah your grandmother is wrong.
    Read Winning with People by John Maxwell.
    All great leaders lead people who want to follow them.

    Brittany Hudson  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:06 am

  • I wonder if there is a difference when the workplace consists mostly of men or mostly of women. I’m currently sitting in a meeting with 40 men and 2 women. WHen there are more women, the “bitch” thing becomes more of a problem.

    spacegeek  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:10 am

  • I don’t think being aggressive and competent at work makes you a bitch. I think your apporach when working with other co-workers is where the “bitch” could come in. I am aggressive, and competent….yet I don’t have any problems with any of my co-workers, and in my evaluations, my boss is always mentioning how none of my co-workers have ever complained about my attitude, or my work habits. One of my co-workers on the other hand…I would say we have the most difficult jobs in the office…..yet everyone complains about how much of a “bitch” she is: She speaks to people as though they are beneath her, is always criticizing other’s system of doing things rather than suggesting that they do it another way, and is micro-managing everyone else…WHEN SHE ISN’T A MEMBER OF MANAGEMENT. She does her job well, and gets things done…… our work styles are very similar, we get things done, and we get them done right…but our approach is completely different.

    If they are complaining about the job getting done well, because you decided to tackle it on your own….it seem like to me they just have to find something about you to criticize. Some people are have to do that just to make themselves seem superior…and remind others in a demeaning way….who’s boss.

    Morgan  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:21 am

  • Sandra: I’ve found that to be my situation, too. It’s not necessarily the men labeling the women.

    Selfmademom: See, I think there’s a difference in being considered a bitch for being assertive and competent and confident, and being considered one for actually treating people poorly. What amazes me is that standing up for myself is seen in as bad a light as being rude to someone else. Bizarre, isn’t it?

    amybow: How aggravating for you! You probably can’t change her mind for her. But do you really even want to? As long as you’re not being rude or treating her badly, you’re doing what you need to do to get the job done, right?

    Kathy: Now, chances are, if you were male and had that same level of expectation, you wouldn’t be called “Snarky.” You’d be called “Effective.”

    Brittany: I think you may have missed part of my point — I’m not saying that you have to or should do damage to other people along the way to be considered a bitch. I’m saying that if being a woman who, in the workplace, exhibits qualities that are considered positive in my male coworkers makes me a bitch, I’m OK with that.

    As for my grandmother, it may be helpful if you click on the link and read about her so you can see where she was coming from when she told me her point of view. Of course, your situtation is probably very different from hers, and your experiences has shaped your point of view just as her life shaped hers. In a nutshell: As one of the only female members of Parliament in India in the 1980s, and one of the only females in local government in her state in India in the 1960s and 1970s, she was considered aggressive just by virtue of the fact that she insisted on working outside of the home. For her, standing up for herself, being aggressive about her work, and especially going into politics were huge forays into what is still mostly a man’s world over there. For her, a bitch was someone who was not passive, not someone who was rude or treated people badly (she had a long list of names for people like that!).

    Lylah  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:25 am

  • spacegeek and morgan, your comments slipped in there while I was still typing!

    Spacegeek: I can see how it becomes more of a problem in that situation. How does one work around that? By being passive-aggressive? But doing one’s own thing? Or is assertiveness and competence etc. seen as positives rather than negatives?

    Morgan: That’s a really, really good point, about approaches and how the criticism can sometimes be tied into someone else’s perception of themselves. Thank you for posting it!

    Lylah  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:29 am

  • Lylah, thank you SO much for this blog entry! I have struggled for a while with this issue after being told by an employer I was “too assertive.” I’ve gone completely the opposite way now, and am leaving this position in two weeks because it’s just not the right fit for me, particularly with the boss. I feel like I need to hide who I am, and have come to the realization that I can be a “babe in total control of herself” (Love that acronym!) and not be “too aggressive.”

    It’s hard for women I think because we have these societal pressures to “be a lady” but then again you don’t want to get walked all over either.

    KellyO  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:44 am

  • KellyO: Thank you for commenting! I’ve had that happen to me, too — being told I’m too assertive and then trying to do what they want only to be told I’m not assertive enough. I’m glad you decided to find a job that’s a better fit for you!

    Lylah  |  March 27th, 2008 at 11:58 am

  • I’ve been called a ballbuster as well, and that my husband must have “titanium underpants”! I take it as a compliment!

    But seriously, I am a tough woman at work, but I’m also funny and try to be a good listener as well. I feel as though I should be a role model as much as possible for men and women alike.

    The few women in my workplace seem to come to me to talk about personal stuff and cry on my shoulder. I greet that result with mixed emotions–I’m glad the women at work don’t feel threatened by me, but OTOH, I have work to do!!

    spacegeek  |  March 27th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

  • “babe in total control of herself”
    I hope thats on a bumper sticker some where so more people here it!
    I suppose thats another great reason for being your own boss so you don’t have to worry about that sort of thing internally.
    I think its BS that just because Hillary or any woman is a strong woman she is called different names. In Australia women are constantly getting paid less then men in high positions STILL. Women who want things are known as bitches or ball breakers and questioned as to why if successful they don’t have kids or how they can do it all with kids?? but you know what Who Cares what others think … I defiantly don’t. Thats where women of our time have a very important job of changing the perception of others by continuing to do fantastic jobs and with more women in the workforce we stick together and turn it around.

    Fiona - Moment by Moment  |  March 27th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

  • A good friend of mine ( a physician ) once told me that her immediate supervisor at the hospital referred to her as ‘an iron fist’ in a ‘lovely, velvet glove.’ I thought that was a terrific compliment and painted a very accurate picture!

    I, myself, have had to deal with this problem…..frequently, actually! And, frankly, I just concern myself with getting results………call me whatever you’d like, but call me ‘Successful!’

    Mary Davis, Author, THE ENTREPRENEURIAL MOM  |  March 27th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

  • Too bad these things happen. But that’s life. We have to make the decision. I’ve been up against similar situations.

    Ashley Ladd  |  March 30th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

  • Lylah!
    Now YOU how Hillary Clinton feels, everytime she’s been called a Bitch or anything else,she’s damned if she does & damned if she doesn’t.
    She should be lauded for her tenacity.
    Don’t think you will find such strenth inthe “other” guy!!!!

    Tammie Alphonse  |  April 1st, 2008 at 12:03 am

  • Working at home does not solve everything, but, it does solve a lot of things.
    LIKE: I love the people I see at the office. I mean… I really love them. :)  |  April 4th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

  • I do think that a lot of people think bitch is required to move ahead. I also think, some people do not know bitch when they see it.
    Just because someone (female) is sturdy and equipped with information & knowledge doesn’t make them a bitch. However, if she is demanding of others, head strong, mean, hard to work with etc. THAT IS BITCH!  |  April 4th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

  • here is a thought

    what is the title of a successful man?
    do we call him a female bitch lol
    i don’t think so
    i bet he is thought of as success man working up the corporate ladder.
    no problems

    veronique  |  April 5th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

  • Not only being a woman - but try being an educated black woman with several degrees… Intimidating - the word that others’ describe me -
    For Black women - most white males and females call us “BLACK BITCHES’ = goes to show, we certainly have 2 strikes against us - Different story when we are on the phone, another story when We actually walk through the door - Faces turn red, folks shift on their feet or in their seats - Because at first glance, I do have presence.
    A strong presence - and then my voice - It carries.
    If one more white person talk of how ‘articulate’ I am, they will get the corporate smack down -
    Are people actually that surprised when black women put words togther to make a sentence - I mean a really good sentence? And can stand before a group of 100 plus and give a resounding oration? WOW…
    Ladies, check yourselves - The women’s movement came on the backs of the civil rights movement and the more opportunity that white males and some white women get to move minority educated women out of the board room because their lack of confidence, then there will always be a ‘problem’ — Get over it - we are here to stay.
    Thanks for the time. Anyone out there understand me?

    Trice  |  April 19th, 2008 at 4:00 am

  • How long did it take you to be okay with it? I’m still on that journey. It’s really, REALLY encouraging to read this.

    Robyn  |  June 5th, 2008 at 9:55 am

  • Trice: I hear you! Thank you for posting that!

    Robyn: It took me years to be OK with it, probably because it took me that long to believe that if someone had a problem with me being confident and competent, then it was really their problem, not mine. I’m careful not to actually BE a bitch, but I can’t do much if someone else decides that they think I am.

    Lylah  |  June 17th, 2008 at 3:25 am

  • Totally get what you’re saying.

    Went thru similar thing at work recently. I stood up for myself and what I felt was right and basically the issue was sidestepped and I was told I was unprofessional for raising it.

    At work woman are expected to meek and weak. That’s just not me, sorry, and I’m sick of having to pretend and watching less competent men excell.

    bloggingmom67  |  July 1st, 2008 at 12:33 pm

  • [...] about this topic, if you haven’t noticed. It’s bad enough that we have to deal with men calling us bitchy when we’re being strong and assertive at work. Why do we find it necessary to actually be bitchy to each other? Like this blog? Submit to: [...]

    I am tired of dealing with bitchy women at work - Work It, Mom! Blog - Work It, Mom!  |  July 13th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  • [...] we have to walk the finest of lines at work, appearing assertive, but not too much, as to not be labeled bitchy, and being compassionate, but not too much, as to not be labeled soft. Show me a man who has to [...]

    Do you brag at work? If not, it’s your loss. - Work It, Mom! Blog - Work It, Mom!  |  August 26th, 2008 at 9:02 am

  • It’s simple schoolboy insecurity…
    As mentioned by a few commenters here, we do have to learn to live with it, but never stop working to change it.  |  December 25th, 2008 at 5:47 am

  • I take the term to mean “Babe In Total Charge of Herself”. I also figure that I am not doing my job correctly if I am not called it at least twice daily…I work in a male dominated field, and tend to do just as you mention: work extremely hard, be competent, etc. etc. etc. and in doing so….I am a bitch.

    Littlefeet  |  December 30th, 2008 at 9:06 am

  • I can’t stand the cold MANLY acting women which means that a women has to be a “bitch” to make it in the MANS world. You can be nice to people and get your point across without being overly aggressive and mean.

    momof02  |  March 5th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

  • Growing up, I felt that there wasn’t this dichotomy if I refused to acknowledge it — “I’m not going to be the ‘victim’”. As I have built my career, I have found that indeed it is a battle. Especially, if you have a female superior (from Minnesota). One’s approach needs to be passive aggressive and with a smile. I don’t do that very well….and it has come to bit me in the rear. Ordinarily, I would say “don’t hold back”….but in this job climate? As a mother, I can’t afford to make huge risks that could harm my family.

    cstep  |  March 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am

  • I can feel for you. I was an occupational safety engineer -now retired. One of the first woman to enter the industry, I was not only expected to break glass ceilings, but build ladders to bring other woman behind me.

    Nothing like always having to do more than anyone else to get half the credit to burn a person out. I loved the work, and knew I was making a difference every day. Workplace safety is less important now, one of those jobs that don’t have a line on the balance sheet. You can’t tell you boss about the people who did not get injured and the medical payments they did not make as an increase in the bottom line.

    I am saddened to think that even today a competent woman is still damned if she does.

    Jan D - Fibrowitch  |  April 18th, 2009 at 9:47 pm

  • Doing some “co-worker” related research I came upon this post and several others… the whole thing, and all comments. Not sure anyone will see this, as I am about two years late, but here is my two cent, as a man who has worked in both male, female, and mixed environments.

    First, I think celebrating the “bitch” title is part of the problem. Both the original poster and several comments treat this title as a badge of honor. I you act like a bitch, sooner or later you will be tagged with the title, and you may well deserve it. I refuse to believe that to be a successful woman means you have to be nasty, hard to approach, unable to communicate professionally, etc. Are there lazy men who will tag you as a bitch if you are simply driven and dedicated to your work? Absolutely, and we men in the workforce know who they are, because they are a problem for us as well. My point is, if you go into a leadership position guns blazing, don’t be surprised if you are labeled a bitch… just may be one. If you think that is okay, then I frankly feel sorry for you… is not the mark of a good leader to take pride in poor behavior. The successful women I have worked for and with were not bitches. Were they driven? Yes, more so than me. Where they dedicated? Absolutely. They were good managers first and foremost, and did not focus on gender politics.

    Second, I think location has A LOT to do with it, as some posters have suggested. Having worked in major cities and rural areas, the attitude of both genders changes dramatically when affected by population and location.

    Third, ratio of men vs. women has a lot to do with it as well, (again) as some posters have suggested. Some women (not all) seem to be unable to be around other women in the workplace, and even a few admit it. I once worked in a suburb of Harrisburg, PA for an electronics manufacturer, in a sales group that was about 50/50 men/women. When most of the ladies were around the men individually, they became, for lack of a better term, “one of the guys,” and got along great and seemed to really enjoy work. Throw in a few more women, and the claws come out. I do not say this to be derogatory, but it was my experience. The reason I said “some admit it” above was because of few of them actually did. I had conversations with a few women who all said they would have rather worked with w group of men, rather than women. Their reasoning was, “women are to catty.” What really confused me was that the women who gave this as a reason, became catty in the presence of other women. Comments about what they were wearing, who they were dating, and just a heightened level of tension. In short, not good for the workplace.

    Finally, it has been my experience (and I am just one person, I realize) that good female leaders got to where they are in very similar ways to the good male managers – they treated people with respect, listened, made strong decisions when necessary, and held people to standard. I do not pretend that men and women face the same challenges in the workforce, but good men will recognize a strong leader regardless of gender.

    S. Hunter  |  March 12th, 2010 at 9:55 am

  • I love this article because it personifies so well how women in the work place are looked upon. From your description - you did not appear “bitchy” but more focused on presenting a quality product/outcome.

    Take this same perspective and put a man behind it and he is well reveared, respected as an excellent employee.

    Keep up the great work. I believe as women we can accomplish anything we want while maintaining our core values.

    Tricia  |  July 27th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

  • Good leaders be it male or female do not stop leading when criticised. You can’t please everyone. In the words of a Nobel prize winner, what do you care what others think? As long as your intentions are noble, you did a great job.

    Kate  |  July 2nd, 2011 at 4:22 pm

  • yeah, my co-works just called me bitch today. I am asking myself” Am I passive- agressive people?” I work with them in a project and I am a project leader, we have a deadline, but I did not see any progress. I came in person serveral time at their desk and ask their data, but they said it was under progress. Tomorrow is the deadline, and I have nothing to show, I only have data of my part. I emailed to them, and cc to their superiosr, my boss that I need all data today, because tomorrow is the deadline, and I need to gather all data for analysis. They was mad on me, said something that the normal person do not want to hear, they are at company longer than me, and I am younger than them. They are men and I am a woman. I talked to my boss about their complain, he said it is OK, you can’t make everyone happy, but you need to make sure your job is done on time. Therefore, I think if you aldready talk to co-worker in person, and the solution can’t solve, email and talk directly to their boss, even though it would make someone mad, it is not your fault. However, I am willing to listen others advice, how do I should deal in this situation?

    Ariel  |  January 26th, 2012 at 11:37 pm